I’m sitting outdoors with a bevy of chickens clucking at my elbow. Across from me the cat is licking himself, fur soaking up warmth. Next to me Bean digs a big hole in an empty flower bed. The grass is wet from rain, and the sun is warm on the black rubber of my boots.
I just spent the weekend with a good friend I’ve known since I was fourteen. He’s an creative, free-spirited atheist. Invariably we always have at least one argument about faith. He sees no need for it–the opiate of the people and all that. I’m on the other side, but less articulate. I don’t keep a drawer of knife sharp words to define the shape of what I know. Tautology. Ignorance. Deism. How do you use the scientific method to argue the depth or scope of spiritual faith? How do you use logic as the basis for accepting or denying that which you cannot know about the movement of another person’s heart?
So now I really want to know:
What do you believe? Do you have faith, or do you live outside it? How do you rationalize your fundamental view of the world? Can logic define it, or is something lost in translation?
The Buddha said:
“Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.”
I feel pretty clear around what I believe- but I have no interest in defending it, or explaining it to people. Also, I am not interested in rationalizing it to people who believe differently. I like to be socratic about it, and ask people questions about their faith- but as Ani Difranco said, “I hold my cards close to my chest, I say what I have to and hold back the rest”
I enjoy theological conversations, but I think I keep my own beliefs close to my chest in these conversations because somehow I don’t want to put something I hold so dear in the line of fire… If that makes any sense…
It’s so very difficult to capture the depth, nuance and personal nature of faith in words on a screen. For me, faith often lives outside one’s logic and frequently defies rational reasoning. Faith in what’s unseen is so often viewed as impossible and foolish. Yet we all believe in, hope for, and experience the reality of love and the gift of hope. Just as we can hear and feel wind, we never actually see it…
Intangible realities that are unique, strong and powerful, resiliant and fragile at the same time. And personally I think being an atheists requires great faith. Choosing to believe there is nothing / no one and living in a state of declaration that it’s just an opiate…well, they have gravitated to a position, a belief, a way of living that requires adherence to something…even if that something is defined as nothing.
I believe we are all spiritual beings, seeking those things that power, position, or possessions can’t satisfy. I live in faith. Not a faith that creates smallness and pettiness but an immense capacity for finding hope and strength. Faith is a journey. It grows when nurtured. It turns stale and stiff when ignored.
Matters of intimate faith are never fully understood by another and I don’t want to set myself in the position of judging another’s heart. All I can do is live my life in a way that speaks to the love and faith I have found, to be authentic and open as the journey unfolds…a journey that I believe I do not walk alone…
Great line: “I don’t keep a drawer of knife sharp words to define the shape of what I know.”
Yeah, me neither.
I see faith as essential and unavoidable as breath… even when we’d rather live without the effort of believing in something… even if our faith is in the fact that no greater reality exists.
Mine is loosely woven from both logic and intuition, and the pattern constantly changes. Threads are pulled out, tears patched, new colors added with each season. Ironically, I feel much more capable of explaining the heart-route to my faith than the rational one. My personal experience of God is so much more… well, personal than logical, even though it needs the logic to survive.
I’m stumbling a bit for words here. I suppose I’d sum up faith as a life-long project, with the pattern never fully exposed until the end–each person’s as unique and intricate and tangled as their own journey.
Oh, I’m with Lyric. I know what I know; I’ve felt my faith, but words defy it. Or maybe, words lessen it. But that’s no help, in a discussion!
There’s a link to a great post on my site, which speaks to this very issue. It talks about the notion of “numinous,” which is something that is “wholly other.” But how do you speak about something wholly other with words, which are ordinary and of this world?
Great post, thanks for the thoughts. And I wonder at the synchronicity of all these thoughts about faith appearing in my life at the same time? Thanks for being a part of it…
I read a quote once (don’t remember where) stating that there are two easy ways to get through life: to believe everything and to believe nothing. Faith, obviously, falls somewhere in between. Which is exactly why it’s not easy. And I don’t believe it is meant to be.
For me, faith is believing that there is a God who has an eternal plan for us. That He knows and loves each of us individually and on a very personal level. That we are all His sons and daughters. That our lives are not random and purposeless. That our souls and relationships are eternal. That this Earth life is a learning ground and a testing ground requisite to the advancement of our souls beyond this realm. That the progression of one’s spirit does not find its end at the grave. The concept of hope, at least in my life, would be nonexistent without belief in the eternal, purposeful and progressive nature of the soul and it’s place within a loving Heavenly Father’s eternal plan.
I believe these things to the extent that my life is centered around them. Not because the thought of facing this world without them terrifies me. Not because I refuse to accept the notion of an irrelevant life. Not because I just want to feel that life is safe and organized into a concrete philosophy that I can put a box around, or use to put the unexplainable into context, and thereby, back under control. (Although all of those are true). I believe them because my heart so inherently knows and feels His existence that I cannot even consciously find the words to explain it.
And as far as reason goes, is it ‘logical’ to expect the workings of an immortal, infinite, all-knowing God to fall within the boundaries (and limitations) of our own mortal logic and perspective?
Krista–yes, I know exactly what you mean by not wanting to put something you hold so dear into the line of fire.
And Lyric, your description of faith resonates too…
Keept talking. This is so nourishing for me, to hear how you shape words around faith.
i really liked that line from you, Julie:
“There are two easy ways to get through life: to believe everything and to believe nothing. Faith, obviously, falls somewhere in between.”
i find it equally hard, though, to define the shape of my faith in words. for me, faith is connected to life energy. to feeling the world, to feeling with the world. to trust in life. maybe that’s for me is coming from the experience that you in fact can go and leap into a white page, and there is a net of words, of stories appearting. that connection is possible, across continents, beyond words.
another thing the question made me think of – i read a zen line this weekend, written by a monk, a long time ago.
Just don’t seek from others,
Or you’ll be far estranged from Self.
I now go on alone;
Everywhere I meet It:
It now is me; I now am It.
One must understand in this way
To merge with thusness.
– Dongshan Liangjie (807–869)
it touched me. this concept of merging with the world, with the thusness of now. to not go astray and look for abstract concepts, but to take the way to learn and follow ones own heart. here the lines. smile. and thanks for this life reflection to start the new week with, the new month. it’s monday morning here. the church bells are just ringing. the sun is just rising.
I grew up in a very religious environment … too religious, cult-like in too many ways. It turned me off to God, religion and the rest of it for a very long time. The thought of me or my loved ones not being “good enough” for a God who is supposed to be all-loving and all-forgiving, that he/she may burn me in hell for being a silly teenager was unfathomable. So I turned my back on it all and lived life like I was gonna die tomorrow, because afterall, armegeddon is coming, isn’t it?? Or so they said. It never came and I started making plans for my life and my future. And most importantly, I stopped and looked and listened and came up with my own conclusions. Whoever, whatever created all this beauty – the sun, the sky, the mountains, my child – could only be full of love. He/She obviously created us with free will, so why punish us so brutally for “disobeying.”
I agree with what has been said – it is difficult to put into words. But I guess that’s faith, huh? I enjoy where I am now – that constant feeling of awe that I live in when I see the miracle that is my son, and now this new pregnancy. With that said, I have to add – I don’t go to church – I think it is just fine to be appreciative in my own way.
I didn’t grow up in a religion, and attended church only sporadically — with friends, neighbors, etc — sampling but never committing. I’ve always struggled with an articulation of faith. In some ways, I am glad that I did not have a dogma forced upon me; in other ways, I am sad not to have had a more clearly defined path. Wielding a machete to cut out the hypocrisy, wrongdoing, and hate bred by religion has been (and continues to be) a messy business for me.
It’s funny, though, that my daughter has entered a church preschool this year. (They are abundant in the South, and a welcome form of inexpensive, caring childcare.) It strikes me that the lessons she is learning, boiled down to a three-year-old level, resonate so well with me. “God loves us.” “God made everything and everything God made is good.” “This is the day that the Lord has made. Let us rejoice and be glad in it.”
We can extrapolate those simple concepts to involved discussions of theology, good and evil, mindfulness, and so on. But what if we just allow ourselves to be like children: to believe we are loved, to appreciate the beauty around us, and to rejoice and be thankful for all that we have and all that we are?
That’s the center of it, for me.
Well, I’ll de-lurk for this one.
This is such a deep thought. I do have faith … it’s the core of who I am as a person. Faith is something which transcends logic. Logic in itself can only go so far in explaining anything. There are things that can only be explained in spiritual terms – and therefore understood spiritually as well. Logic and reason have to be based on a fundamental spiritual truth before they can begin to operate well. An atheist’s fundamental truth will lead him in circles if opens his eyes to it. As a Christian, my logic can lead me to correct conclusions, because it’s based on the truth of God’s word. It may not always, though, as things of the spirit (and God’s word) transcend logic, as I said. But if logic is in fact based on truth (which is a spiritual validation), logic will not lead you in circles, but point you to truth.
How do I rationalize my fundamental view of the world? To a certain extent, no one can. Faith in God must first be accepted before it can be explained – not the other way around. I believe what I believe because it has been proven conclusively to me. My heart is assured. I can argue what I believe … but unless the one I’m arguing it with has accepted its existence, the argument is fruitless.
Thanks Christina! I enjoy reading your blogs.
I find I do not believe in God, although I do believe that the universe is structured in a way as though there were a God. As brief a description as I’ve ever encountered is to call myself a non-theist, one who does not believe there is a being separate from the fabric of the universe who sometimes operates in the affairs of human beings.
I do feel – and have felt for many years now – an overwhelming sense of a presence that supports all that is: a kind of “ground of all being.†My experience has been that, from this presence, this ground, everything not only arises but is also nurtured by the past and (in the case of conscious beings) an occasional remembrance of the future. I have a deep background in the theoretical sciences that makes it easy for me to imagine such a presence. To me, it makes sense, even though it would be easy (but incorrect) to interpret this presence as a conscious, intentional presence – like a theistic God-being. I feel, deeply and powerfully, minute by minute, the presence of a universe surrounding me that supports me in ways that I often find overwhelmingly supportive and loving – much the same as a child nurtured by a father or mother. I am especially aware of this presence when I can manage to remain calm, centered in my self, mindful of all which surrounds me, and fully absorbed in each moment as it comes upon me.
My experience has been that nearly everybody has these same feelings, sometimes often, sometimes only occasionally, and that each of us interprets the feelings in different ways, but usually as a spiritual or religious experience.
I don’t even try to talk logically about faith. The word faith itself implies not having any need to explain or justify. I simply justify my Christian faith to myself in this way. EVEN IF Jesus is not the son of God and God is not well…God and all that entails, his example and teaching are what are best for humankind. The teaching of Jesus Christ and The New Testament provide the most common-sense ways to ensure we treat each other, the earth and ourselves with the utmost respect (without self-indulgence). Thinking back about 10 years ago, the phrase WWJD (What Would Jesus Do) was a popular phrase in the teen Christian culture. That in essence is all I need to inspire me. I just need to ask myself What Would Jesus Do? When I consider that, I know what the right thing to do is most times. Some people call it integrity, morals or character. I call it my faith. I BELIEVE. I don’t need to KNOW logically because that isn’t the important question or answer. I am reading a great book by Max Lucado about doing just that…becoming more like Jesus. This is the most worthy goal I can have a citizen, mother, wife, friend, daughter, and counselor.
Oh, darling you, I don’t know that my words will help any argument. I myself am absolutely no good at this sort of thing. But faith…well, it’s just, inexplicably, there. Now I feel that the Almighty deals with me gently, but there have been many times where I felt slammed up against the Big Whatever He/She is and was and shall be. I’ve never been able to escape the presence of the Divine, when it wanted its way with me. The only way that the grip on my heart would lessen is when I sighed and said, “Okay, come on in…”
But I do believe, and deeply. There is no logic to anyone rising from the dead, no apparent logic to the many stories that I believe are true. (And I mean true in that they did happen, one way or the other. I used to think, when I was a kid, when Jesus spoke in parables, that he just was using an example from SOMEONE SOMEWHERE, you know, since he was God and could see everything…still an interesting thought, don’t you think?) I believe in a good God, a loving Creator, and that we are his most beautiful handiwork. I believe, incredibly, that Jesus was his Son, or really that such a simple explanation is only the barest skimmer of what we can absorb. (Much like John 1 – In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God…so powerful and beautiful and deep beyond deep.)That he longs to be in relationship with us, like you and I long for relationship in our lives. I’m not interested in debating it at this point – only interested in soaking in God’s love and spreading it as I go about my life. The love spills over, that’s all I know.
A very thoughtful post, and many very thoughtful comments. Love the line about “knife sharp words”.
Something important to consider:
I would rather have a mind that is opened by wonder than one closed by belief.
(Can’t remember who said this, but it speaks to my very soul.)
Nancy – love the quote about a mind opened by wonder!
A few additional thoughts, albeit random ramblings… LOL
What I believe has a solid foundation in Scripture but it’s also intimately interwoven and tailored by my experiences in life. The two can’t be seperated for me. And when there’s any dissonance I find that living inside the question simply leads me deeper into areas of trust and gratitude. I believe in Emmanuel – God with us. How He expresses Himself in my life, however, isn’t a prescription I dictate to others. Finding” the way, the truth and the life” is a personal journey.
I don’t hide my faith at all, it’s paramount. My blog is a testimony to the hope, healing, grace and mercy that God’s love has brought into my life. Perhaps some of my baggage comes from having been a PK, because I cringe at the label “religious” but delight in being known as spiritual. See I told you it wasn’t rational…
I believe in the mind of a child. I wish I knew how to preserve that, for my own children.
I came back to read through the comments again, and am glad that I did. The quote from Nancy spoke to me deeply as well. A quick Google search attributes it to Gerry Spence, a famous trial lawyer.
Yes, I’m a geek. I’ve stopped apologizing for it.
Thanks again for this discussion, Christina.
Thanks Nancy & Nicole (for the source) for that quote. Also rings true for me. I’ve loved reading these comments so much.
I’ve been thinking about your post and whether I dare to even say it…but I don’t believe. And I don’t have sharp words to describe it either but it is deep and unwavering. Non-belief. Anyone who says it is easy to not believe has never been there. It’s hard. I wish sometimes that I could have the comfort of belief but I cannot. It is beyond me. People think that because I am an aethist I must be a thief, a liar, and many worse things. But as someone who doesn’t believe in an anything beyond this I find the moment very precious, the now an incredible opportunity – I act as if I will be judged in this life, not another. There are no second chances for me. There is no way things are meant to be, no grand plan, and anything that is worth doing takes work and passion and a lot of it. I don’t usually tell people I’m an aethist because I’ve found that while people are often accepting about varying beliefs they flat out refuse to accept disbelief. But I have come to my stance through as much hard work and intangible emotion as those who believe. And I respect that we all might come to a different conclusion and that’s okay because that is why it’s faith.
Okay, I don’t usually do this, just so you know. But you did ask a very direct question and I have a direct answer.
If your faith does not follow logic or common sense, then your faith is misplaced, or so I believe. I’m a Christian and questioned my faith severely as an eighteen year old. I tried it against logic, science, common sense and other religions expecting it to crumble. It didn’t. It still hasn’t, no matter how experienced I have become in my life.
My faith in a nutshell: “The Apostle’s Creed,” The Laws of Thermodynamics, and Physics, and the measure of wisdom I have been granted through grace.